Curse

upier · Oct 30, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Confession time:
I don't.
My previous mesmers didn't even have it unlocked - and my current guy has it, but never uses it. This isn't because it wouldn't be good - heck my necro is having the time of his life blasting through PvE by spamming it alongside Discord - but using it on my mesmer feels like such a waste. The guy is one of those special moments in my gaming history where I was able to do some VERY fun (and different) things - and the nuke that is CoP just erases that. Playing CoP on a mesmer doesn't feel any different then any damaging spellcaster I played. And in which case - I might as well play something else.

Now I am certainly NOT suggesting not to use it - it's CoP dude! CoP! - nor am I doubting it's strength - once again it's CoP! - what I am simply asking is if you like the way the mesmer evolved with the addition of CoP (and additional PvE skills in GWEN)? Do you have the feeling that the class lost something by adding CoP - or do you see the gain only? Or does the gain negate the loss? Or do you just see it as the crutch that gave the mesmer class something that actually fits the broken PvE?
Was CoP good for the mesmer class?

obsidian ectoplasm · Oct 30, 2008, 10:14 AM // 10:14

I think CoP is good, cause makes the use of Mes's more in PvE

but then again i dont like PvE only skills

turbo234 · Oct 30, 2008, 10:37 AM // 10:37

eh it has its uses, but i would rather run a normal build instead. cry of pain kinda takes the fun out of elite areas. hey lets interrupt every single action and aoe the enemy to death so we never have to worry about taking damage just isnt my style of play

Xeng Suey · Oct 30, 2008, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Confession time:
I don't.
My previous mesmers didn't even have it unlocked - and my current guy has it, but never uses it. This isn't because it wouldn't be good - heck my necro is having the time of his life blasting through PvE by spamming it alongside Discord - but using it on my mesmer feels like such a waste. The guy is one of those special moments in my gaming history where I was able to do some VERY fun (and different) things - and the nuke that is CoP just erases that. Playing CoP on a mesmer doesn't feel any different then any damaging spellcaster I played. And in which case - I might as well play something else.

Now I am certainly NOT suggesting not to use it - it's CoP dude! CoP! - nor am I doubting it's strength - once again it's CoP! - what I am simply asking is if you like the way the mesmer evolved with the addition of CoP (and additional PvE skills in GWEN)? Do you have the feeling that the class lost something by adding CoP - or do you see the gain only? Or does the gain negate the loss? Or do you just see it as the crutch that gave the mesmer class something that actually fits the broken PvE?
Was CoP good for the mesmer class?

wow are you serious? At last someone that understands what i feel when i play cryer with my mesmer.

Dude, the mesmer is the only character in game that could decide a battle in pvp, and i belive it can help more then people think in pve (imo mesmer and his habilities are underrated in pve). He can turn the way the battle is going by simply disrupting/distracting/blocking damage dealers or heals/prots acording to the curse of the battle.

I'm not saying CoP is bad, i'm just saying that mesmer has his own place in Guildwars and CoP should be used, maynly, in dmg dealer characters and not on mesmers.
We cant negate that Cryers build brought the live to Mesmers in pve...but i bet CoP is like Ursan in the folowing sense: once CoP gots nerfed, mesmers will disapear again from the PvE scene, because many people dont know about his capabilities (i must confess that in the majority of pve areas, i always tried to bring a mesmer whith me...its always usefull!) So, imo, the gain whith CoP on mesmers is Illusionary, and will end if and only if CoP gets nerfed for some reason.

As usual i might have forgotten to say something, but in general i think i have all sayed about this

gl hf

upier · Oct 30, 2008, 12:28 PM // 12:28

I might have been misunderstood a bit.
I am not saying that a mesmer without PvE skills - CoP in particular- is a better option then with (because it's not) - I am just asking if given the fact that PvE skills are designed with PvE in mind thus pretty much just being damage, damage, DAMAGE - you approve that evolution the class took.

I am fully aware that not running CoP pretty much always means I am running a sub-par build (and that's something I perfectly fine with because I know I am able to make up for that (or my heroes are

)) - but that simply isn't something that would make not use something as interesting as slowdowns or other options that make the mesmer stand out (and not necessarily in terms of effectiveness - or better yet CERTAINLY not in terms of effectiveness

).

Sindy · Oct 30, 2008, 01:13 PM // 13:13

When I first started as an Ele, the person who got me into the game was a mesmer. I remember standing around in the crystal desert spamming LfG (no heros way back when) and I'd get tons of invites/whispers to group, but they always carried the caveat "if you drop the mesmer".

CoP is exactly as you said, a crutch, or a skill with just PvE in mind. Do I use it? Of course. But it takes a lot of the thought that my mesmer used to take out of it. When the interrupt effect is secondary, then I'm really just a new form of nuker.

Being this late in GW though, I can't say I disapprove of the change. They still have their undisputed role in PvP, but PvE-only skills allow the mesmer that extra option. If they can't get by doing their "thing" then, well, I can always AE->CoP. We know they certainly aren't getting into PvE groups because of their E-denial...

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Meh, it's one of those things that say "abuse me!", and when there comes a skill that says that, and it doesn't completely harm the concept of a profession, it's a "might as well" thing. Although Arcane Conundrum and Cry of Frustration are pretty fun to use in PvE, more than BHA / Epidemic / Volley.

But either way, the only upside to using CoP on a Mesmer is Assassins' Promise and Fast Casting. One which can be replicated on an Assassin and used as a Signet Spiker, one can be replicated by a PvE skill and doesn't make much of a difference anyway. But the efficiency of a Mesmer isn't this discussion, so I won't bring up that shit.

Painbringer · Oct 30, 2008, 02:02 PM // 14:02

It’s a crutch that is for sure, but it did fix the Mesmer Class on getting in PVE groups. It allows them to do some AOE and Mesmer Interruption at the same time. I strongly believe that some of these skills “this one for example” should be Elite. I have run the Faction and Prophesies Campaigns with CoP, and I have also ran it with only Mesmer skills I found on the way. Addition to that no PVE skills just standard ones I bought from the trainer or learned in quests. Well to be honest it was more fun without the PVE skills. I remember not to long ago when some missions for masters/bonus where unattainable for me. Well the PVE and Hero Builds have destroyed those blockades. Honestly If I can get Protector title on my Mesmer for all the campaigns solo and with little effort it says something on balance. Mesmer’s need the crutch of these skills but the good Mesmer players are cleaning up house with them in PVE.

Thanks for the thread it is skills like this should be discussed this way... rather then “Oh this skill ^&*)^^# rules !”

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

Honestly If I can get Protector title on my Mesmer for all the campaigns solo and with little effort it says something on balance.

That's more the ease of PvE than the Mesmer class; it's easy no matter how you put it.

Numa Pompilius · Oct 30, 2008, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Yeah, I don't like CoP either. Can't really put my finger on why, but I don't. Sure, I see that it's good, but the mindlessness of it annoys me.

It's one of a small number of skills (e.g. Signet of Illusion) which I don't use because it just doesn't feel right even though it's clearly a powerful skill.

Yeah, I've asked for good nuke skills for mesmers in the past, to make them more viable in PvE, but I feel Visions of Regret is how such a skill should be, while Cry of Pain isn't.

It's not a huge issue with me, there's other skills (and even the entire freaking Assassin profession!) I feel are more out of place, but... yeah, I don't like Cry of Pain.

Painbringer · Oct 30, 2008, 02:41 PM // 14:41

One thing I forgot... An overpowered part when it comes to this skill is that it is based solely on your Sunspear Rating. This makes any class that is using a mesmer secondary a powerful foe without a single attribute specked in the mesmer class. This should not be. There should have been a link to fast casting IMO on this skill (maybe for the amount of foes it hits or maybe the distance from target this can affect but have it linked to the fast casting attribute)

Eight players running a mesmer secondary or primary, Maxed Sunspear Title and you have 800 damage to a mob in a second or two. 1600 if you echo it and 2400 if you arcane echo it off of echo(with out a single attribute point spent)

smilingscar · Oct 30, 2008, 02:47 PM // 14:47

It's sad. It was a crutch designed to give mesmers a skill that worked against anything and worked well. CoP was good in the beginning in that it was one of the few good mesmer skills that could do this while keeping pvp balanced.

However, now that we have a pve-pvp skill split, it seems that CoP is acting as a crutch for what should be done with the mesmer skill line in pve. Why is N/me popular for cryway? The easy answer is soul reaping wins pve, but the truth is that Mesmers don't have enough valid skills to make them worth running with CoP. You can go with an AP build, but even there AP is just a crutch from your secondary to fuel skills you should be able to afford yourself. I mean, we have an entire skill line devoted to energy and an elite to reduce recharges, and we are still stuck with AP? Pathetic.

And so you do AoE damage. Woo-hoo. CoP's effect is just kinda boring. No one really uses it as a interrupt for three reasons. One: why wait for a skill when I can kill now? And two: Why would I interrupt a foe I've hexed? Usually that hex requires that foe to take an action that I would rather go off than interrupt. These drawbacks and a lack of versatile hexes are the main reasons mesmers bring somewhat "useless" hexes just to meet CoP's requirement (mind wrack or shrinking armor for example).

I hate CoP as it is; it needs a big overhaul. First, it needs to work better with a mesmer than with anyone else by tying it into the fast casting line. Second it needs a better effect than raw damage (raw damage can stay, but it needs something better than just an interrupt). Third: we need better hexes to trigger CoP. This means we need some more of our hexes to work on everyone (in order for us to truly use CoP on everyone). VoR and degen hexes are currently the only ones to meet this requirement. However, degen is meh and VoR has too long a recharge. Empathy kinda works, but not that well. Domination needs more CoP friendly hexes (I think the only reason Ether Nightmare + CoP is popular is because it's the only hex a dom mesmer can bring that works on everyone and whose effect doesn't clash with that of CoP's). This can be done either by making them more versatile, or also by making them cheap and spammable, I'd prefer versatile.

Tyla · Oct 30, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by smilingscar

snip.

I must say, great post right there on Mesmers.

romeus petrus · Oct 30, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

CoP reintroduced the mesmer as a class to PvE. It is a good dps skill. Mind you there are a lot of other real good uses for a mesmer. So ya it's good but no where near as imbalanced as say SF or SY.

Knight O Cydonia · Oct 30, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Hmmmm well i kinda agree and disagree with some of the points here.

What's clear is that it's too easily abused when you have 8 or so copies of it in your team, and that it can be run by everyone and anyone that can go x/Me. Maybe there could be a way of making it so that it doesn't stack, as I doubt it would be so overpowered with only 1 usable copy in your team. It's one of those troubled skills with diminishing returns (kinda reminds me of blood spkie). Most of my experience comes from H/H 99% of the PvE game (I guess thats the case for most mesmers

), so I kinda see it at the bottom end of the scale and don't see it as too much of an 'overpowered' problem with 1 copy.

I like the interrupt aspect, as they can be more helpful than actual damage (situation depending of course) so it makes it at least a bit more versitile than just a 'kill stuff' button.

I'm a bit confused as to why people dont see it as a 'mersmery' skill. It interrupts and punishes monsters that have a hex on them. Would it be more 'mesmery' if it did less damage? Would you consider Accumilated Pain (punishes a hex) a 'mesmery' skill? How about Cry of Frustration (AoE interrupt and small damage)? Surely your beef with it is that its overpowered in 8 man teams, not that it doesn't feel like a mesmer skill.

I agree they need to do something about it, but the last thing the PvE mesmer needs is yet another sub-par skill that never sees use.

Xeng Suey · Oct 30, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Damage mitigaton (interrupts in the right place) and damage buff (cast prevention). Two areas that mesmer is great! No ofense, but I still dont see why some people in here can't find it usefull to bring in a pve buil w/o CoP...
Btw, situations like this: "Oh man...mesmer is not usefull in pve u just need big D0mage and good heal in pve!!yeah!" are plai bullsh!t, no offense.

draxynnic · Oct 31, 2008, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

One thing I forgot... An overpowered part when it comes to this skill is that it is based solely on your Sunspear Rating. This makes any class that is using a mesmer secondary a powerful foe without a single attribute specked in the mesmer class. This should not be. There should have been a link to fast casting IMO on this skill (maybe for the amount of foes it hits or maybe the distance from target this can affect but have it linked to the fast casting attribute)

Eight players running a mesmer secondary or primary, Maxed Sunspear Title and you have 800 damage to a mob in a second or two. 1600 if you echo it and 2400 if you arcane echo it off of echo(with out a single attribute point spent)

Agreed. Personally, I think all of the PvE skills should have been tied to real attributes rather than titles. Certainly the ones that are profession-specific. Then you'd a) actually need to make a meaningful sacrifice to use them, and b) wouldn't have to grind to get the full benefit out of them.

But enough on grinding that particular axe.

I don't think CoP is really a bad skill, although it is a crutch. The real problem is that PvE provides insufficient rewards for being a 'real' mesmer. In that framework, CoP allows them to nuke, but allows them to nuke in a matter that at least gives a nod to the mesmer way of fighting. It doesn't really feel unmesmery to me - instead, it's a kind of Cry of Frustration with an improved effect as payoff for an extra condition.

Smilingscar makes a good point, however. While ANet does wish to keep the PvE-PvP split to a minimum, a better solution would be to split the majority of Mesmer skills into PvE and PvP modes and substantially buff the former to take into account the generally reduced effect of Mesmer skills on PvE opponents. Such an action would, I think, actually reduce the split, as it would mean that Mesmers are actually using the same skills - even if those skills are significantly more powerful on paper - rather than relying on AP and AE to spam PvE skills.

Even better would be to rework PvE so it's closer to PvP in what works and what doesn't, but I think we can all agree that that's unlikely to happen in GW1. Maybe they'll pull it off in the sequel...

Phe Belladona · Oct 31, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

well ok the lets nuke isnt too mesmery, but its still an anything interupt with 12 recharge.. its big damage is what you'd mainly use it for but whats the point in not taking it, it fits into any build as an interupt and so what if it happens to be the most over powered damage skill in the game

kostolomac · Oct 31, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

When shit(I mean mobs) need to die fast , take CoP , Ap and the other 2 norn skills and rape mobs like a nuker would , or even better. That's why I like it , I leave the interrupting , disabling skills and all that nice mesmer stuff to pvp , since I know that it will really hurt the enemy , unlike those in pve. With all that being said I really like CoP.

Bowstring Badass · Oct 31, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Meh, it's one of those things that say "abuse me!", and when there comes a skill that says that, and it doesn't completely harm the concept of a profession, it's a "might as well" thing. Although Arcane Conundrum and Cry of Frustration are pretty fun to use in PvE, more than BHA / Epidemic / Volley.

But either way, the only upside to using CoP on a Mesmer is Assassins' Promise and Fast Casting. One which can be replicated on an Assassin and used as a Signet Spiker, one can be replicated by a PvE skill and doesn't make much of a difference anyway. But the efficiency of a Mesmer isn't this discussion, so I won't bring up that shit.

Pretty much my thoughts on the subject.